SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
90
90
Nov 4, 2012
11/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 90
favorite 0
quote 0
is a civil rights statute. -- it is a civil rights statute. they can be a perfectly legitimate plaintiffs to bring a lawsuit, and there are a number of people who belong to disability organizations that actually, that is what their livelihood is, bringing these lawsuits. the gentleman over here, who was also a lawyer knows of at least one case involving two lawsuits. they started all neighborhoods. the target places like san francisco because this is an old city with old buildings, virtually none of which comply. we only have new construction that would be billed to 1988 compliance standards, usually. whatever kind of business you have, the building part does not enforce ada compliance. you have your architect look at the ada if you are going to make a major revision anyway. is very expensive to do that. the demand letter is a requirment for the state -- is a requirement for the state laws to be brought. for civil rights cases, you are expected to know the law and be in compliance. they do not make a demand under federal law saying they should
is a civil rights statute. -- it is a civil rights statute. they can be a perfectly legitimate plaintiffs to bring a lawsuit, and there are a number of people who belong to disability organizations that actually, that is what their livelihood is, bringing these lawsuits. the gentleman over here, who was also a lawyer knows of at least one case involving two lawsuits. they started all neighborhoods. the target places like san francisco because this is an old city with old buildings, virtually...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
97
97
Nov 3, 2012
11/12
by
SFGTV
tv
eye 97
favorite 0
quote 0
rights laws. >> mr. sanchez. >> scott sanchez, the giants have won and congratulations to them on game 169 world series. [ applause ] >> i think that is the only applause i have gotten here. i hope i don't make it more difficult to understand for the commission. just going through the fact there was a v. from 1991-92 that authorized the garage at the rear. a one-car garage and it was issued and i don't think a building permit was filed. i think it was a previous owner of the building, but that was never invoked. i just happened to find that out today dooing additional research. so the process that we're in now began in 2005. when a variance application was filed in march to allow the garage at the rear. a building permit was filed in june of that year, section 311 neighborhood notify case was done on the garage and building permit. there was no discretionary review filed on that application. there was a hearing and the zoning administrator granted the variance and that was dated november of 2005, seven y
rights laws. >> mr. sanchez. >> scott sanchez, the giants have won and congratulations to them on game 169 world series. [ applause ] >> i think that is the only applause i have gotten here. i hope i don't make it more difficult to understand for the commission. just going through the fact there was a v. from 1991-92 that authorized the garage at the rear. a one-car garage and it was issued and i don't think a building permit was filed. i think it was a previous owner of the...
228
228
Oct 31, 2012
10/12
by
KICU
tv
eye 228
favorite 0
quote 0
news say they don't want their civil rights stripped away. >>> here at 7:00 yesterday you talked with us a little bit about dropping temperatures here at home and boy we could feel them today. >> yeah. some big difference, right? some areas as much as ten greece cooler this afternoon but we saw the sunshine in the afternoon, at least most of us did. the low clouds and the fog already moving back in, in fact, it's a little tough to see along highway one in some cases. down in pacifica you may find this or that to be aware of if you're going to be out and about. 61 san ra fell. widespread mid 60s at this time. look at the satellite radar. we're watching this system here that is going to bring us some rain and it looks like in time for some of our trick or treeth tomorrow night. you can see the northwest corner of california seeing just a few light sprinkles at this time. let's talk about what's here at home. we are dealing with just partly cloudy skies, a little bit of fog at the coast tomorrow morning we're going to wake up with the low clouds and fog once again but now it is 4:00 in t
news say they don't want their civil rights stripped away. >>> here at 7:00 yesterday you talked with us a little bit about dropping temperatures here at home and boy we could feel them today. >> yeah. some big difference, right? some areas as much as ten greece cooler this afternoon but we saw the sunshine in the afternoon, at least most of us did. the low clouds and the fog already moving back in, in fact, it's a little tough to see along highway one in some cases. down in...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
97
97
Oct 30, 2012
10/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 97
favorite 0
quote 0
for years, i served our city as a criminal prosecutor, a civil rights attorney, founder of a small business, and volunteered as chair of both the neighborhood association and an affordable housing organization. when i was elected four years ago, i promised to bring people together to deliver results, to increase cooperation and accountability at city hall. over the past four years, i'm proud of what we have=hvj÷ accomplishedpj9n together, focug on what matters, to deliver for our dim0]czdñ 3 neighborhoods, again and again. now, we've been creating jobsm with waterfront projects to open the new exploratorium, cruise ship terminal, america's campus, a chinese hospital. we're been keeping families in our city by rebuilding the recreation center, playgrounds all over the district, we've been supporting small businesses, cutting small business fees, red tape, and championing business tax reform on the november ballot. when proposition e passes so that we end our tax on jobs rather than on profits, our local merchants, our restaurants, cafes and shops will be able to hire more people. we've bee
for years, i served our city as a criminal prosecutor, a civil rights attorney, founder of a small business, and volunteered as chair of both the neighborhood association and an affordable housing organization. when i was elected four years ago, i promised to bring people together to deliver results, to increase cooperation and accountability at city hall. over the past four years, i'm proud of what we have=hvj÷ accomplishedpj9n together, focug on what matters, to deliver for our dim0]czdñ 3...
145
145
Oct 28, 2012
10/12
by
KQED
tv
eye 145
favorite 0
quote 0
before i joined the education trust west, we're a statewide education civil rights organization, i was in san diego unified school district. so, you could see the budget cuts year and year rippling through our schools and our classrooms. and so, what's really at stake when we think about the future is not just our education system, not just our k-12 system, but the economy of our state and our state's future. what proposition 38 does is it reinvests in our k-12 system, our preschool system, for 12 years. on an average, $10 billion a year, and that would actually restore all the cuts that have been slashing through our education system for the last five years. now, that money is protected. it can't be taken by sacramento, it can't be used for other purposes. it has to go to schools. and then it gives films at the school level the ability to make decisions about how to use that money. so, not folks in sacramento, not administrators in districts but folks at the school level. and that's $10 billion a year that can be used to restore arts, music, p.e., extend the school year, all of the th
before i joined the education trust west, we're a statewide education civil rights organization, i was in san diego unified school district. so, you could see the budget cuts year and year rippling through our schools and our classrooms. and so, what's really at stake when we think about the future is not just our education system, not just our k-12 system, but the economy of our state and our state's future. what proposition 38 does is it reinvests in our k-12 system, our preschool system, for...
178
178
Oct 31, 2012
10/12
by
KNTV
tv
eye 178
favorite 0
quote 0
rights in d.c., told us they respond to complaints. but no one is enforcing title ix regularly. a spokesman said they do conduct proactive investigation. but they haven't done any in the last four years. of the more than 200 e-mails we sent, a few did identify the title ix coordinator. but the majority did not respond or didn't know who it was. >> if you have a tip for jenna or anyone on our investigative unit, give us an e-mail or call. >>> a northern california surfer is recovering from emergency surgery tonight after another shark attack. it's the second in nearly a week along the california coast. the second one happened near eureka. you see the bites taken out of that surfboard. two of his friends, one happened to be an emt. both of them used their body weight to stop the victim's bleeding until the paramedics were able to arrive. >> he was gashed up in four or five serious gashes from the nipple down to his hip. he was bleeding out pretty good. >> the victim is reportedly in fair condition. a week ago, a 39-year-old surfer was ki
rights in d.c., told us they respond to complaints. but no one is enforcing title ix regularly. a spokesman said they do conduct proactive investigation. but they haven't done any in the last four years. of the more than 200 e-mails we sent, a few did identify the title ix coordinator. but the majority did not respond or didn't know who it was. >> if you have a tip for jenna or anyone on our investigative unit, give us an e-mail or call. >>> a northern california surfer is...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
126
126
Nov 1, 2012
11/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 126
favorite 0
quote 0
i was very active in the civil rights movement in new orleans. i moved to san francisco in 1980 with my wife cheryl and our son scott because i bought a seat on the pacific stock exchange in order to trade options for my own account. i did that successfully until 1980 at which time i became an arbitrator for finish ra, the financial industry regulatory authority. i'm still an arbitrator for finra. i also taught as an adjunct professor at usf. i taught real estate in their finance department. when i stopped trading i became more deeply involved in that district. i was elected to the st. stevens school board and was also appointed to the board of directors at the stones town ymca. i coached youth sports at the y and i also fund raised for both organizations. later fund raised for sacred heart where my son went to school and st. ignatius where my daughter went to school. my son is in the police department and my daughter works in the tech industry. my wife and i are very proud of both of them. i served on my homeowners association as delegate to the
i was very active in the civil rights movement in new orleans. i moved to san francisco in 1980 with my wife cheryl and our son scott because i bought a seat on the pacific stock exchange in order to trade options for my own account. i did that successfully until 1980 at which time i became an arbitrator for finish ra, the financial industry regulatory authority. i'm still an arbitrator for finra. i also taught as an adjunct professor at usf. i taught real estate in their finance department....
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
85
85
Oct 30, 2012
10/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 85
favorite 0
quote 0
right. i will now turn the program over to our program administrator, ken stein. >> thank you very much, wendy. last month we had a program, swords to plowshares. today we will be hearing from marc trotz and dr. rag parekh. i want to thank dr. parekh, our first presenter who serves on the front lines of the most difficult to serve clients in the hardest economic times on a daily basis which, it me, is an incredible -- it's astounding what you and ran parker and your team do is remarkable. i also really want to thank marc trotz for coming today. some of you know he's going to be leaving the city at the end of the month and with his travel schedule this month and the fact he's leaving in a few weeks, the fact he took time to come and be with us today is great. i think it speaks super for transition that margo antonetti, is here today, we're delighted he's going to be here. a couple years ago i had the great, great pleasure of taking a tour of one of the city's supportive programs led by marc a
right. i will now turn the program over to our program administrator, ken stein. >> thank you very much, wendy. last month we had a program, swords to plowshares. today we will be hearing from marc trotz and dr. rag parekh. i want to thank dr. parekh, our first presenter who serves on the front lines of the most difficult to serve clients in the hardest economic times on a daily basis which, it me, is an incredible -- it's astounding what you and ran parker and your team do is remarkable....
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
150
150
Nov 4, 2012
11/12
by
SFGTV
tv
eye 150
favorite 0
quote 0
it was then called the chief administrative officer and rudy rothenberg and incredible civil servant and i worked with him on this building. in fact i drew this building. i had architecture work as a midship man and if i find it i'm going to give it to you. we also as a result of that we subsumed the department of public health ambulance into the fire department and should have been done years ago and we centralized 911 upstairs. it was a great ride. in addition to the people i mentioned there were scores of others that helped me to succeed kronenberg was one of these people to help me when the political system was going on and i am particularly indebted to the usual suspects, the san francisco suspects who come forward when you have problems and help you to fix them, and i will end with that because they make a difference, and i will end with that, and i brought something with me i want to show you. that's the emergency plan that i as the first all hazards emergency plan that we wrote for this city. it was praised up and down the coast. you have a better one now, and could you reach
it was then called the chief administrative officer and rudy rothenberg and incredible civil servant and i worked with him on this building. in fact i drew this building. i had architecture work as a midship man and if i find it i'm going to give it to you. we also as a result of that we subsumed the department of public health ambulance into the fire department and should have been done years ago and we centralized 911 upstairs. it was a great ride. in addition to the people i mentioned there...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
165
165
Oct 27, 2012
10/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 165
favorite 0
quote 0
response civil military operations center that was there to provide the command and control of those tactical units responding on the military side, this provided a perfect environment and opportunity for them to be able to interact with the civilian partners and provide the most appropriate response and understanding. very complex and again i just want to reiterate that the military, we know when we're responding in this type of environment that we're not coming in with the heavy capability and saying don't worry, we're here to help you and take over, we're here to complement and support you with the appropriate ways that you request our needs. the next few slides that i'm going to go over here shows some of the military capability and how some of those responses that we did during this exercise can also be applied at home in a domestic environment such as a response to maybe an earthquake here in san francisco. so the first part up there, you see a slide of some of the military that's getting ready to do some mapping and underwater environment general location to see what's going o
response civil military operations center that was there to provide the command and control of those tactical units responding on the military side, this provided a perfect environment and opportunity for them to be able to interact with the civilian partners and provide the most appropriate response and understanding. very complex and again i just want to reiterate that the military, we know when we're responding in this type of environment that we're not coming in with the heavy capability...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
77
77
Oct 30, 2012
10/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 77
favorite 0
quote 0
people to live with safety and with dignity and independence in the community in accordance with our civil rights, you know, as what's affirmed under the olmstead decision to support people living in the community. so this legislation that was introduced i think is a very important step towards supporting people here and you can expect to be hearing more about it over the next two months and i would encourage everybody to come to the hearings as the legislation is actually discussed in committee and at the board and to voice your support. another piece of that legislation, too, would mandate the installation of telephone jacks in the units because of course communication sometimes is that life and death link to emergency services. i also wanted to bring to the attention of the council a new committee that will start meeting next week. it's called the accessible parking policy advisory committee. this is sponsored by the municipal transportation authority. the first meeting will be on tuesday, october 23, at 2:00 pm at 1 south van ness. the public is welcome. what the committee plans to do
people to live with safety and with dignity and independence in the community in accordance with our civil rights, you know, as what's affirmed under the olmstead decision to support people living in the community. so this legislation that was introduced i think is a very important step towards supporting people here and you can expect to be hearing more about it over the next two months and i would encourage everybody to come to the hearings as the legislation is actually discussed in...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
164
164
Oct 29, 2012
10/12
by
SFGTV2
tv
eye 164
favorite 0
quote 0
rights. well, they were professor ling chee wang and henry durham. and when i was actually quite despairing, i was quite despairing, it was coming down it a crucial vote in 2007 and then 2008 for the college board to support this campus, they came to the fore, they organized the community, the community rose up probably one of the first few times in the history of the chinese community in san francisco, they rose up from the ground and they said, we want this campus, we're fighting for this campus and you better vote for this campus, and guess what, we passed it and we got the campus. so this campus has been built and raised and all of us community activists, ling chee wang, all you old-timers, we built it for current generations and generations as yell yet unborn. our forefathers came hear to build the railroads. they came hear to build the railroads but really to build a better life for themselves and their families. they would be so proud. they would be so proud to know that their great-gr
rights. well, they were professor ling chee wang and henry durham. and when i was actually quite despairing, i was quite despairing, it was coming down it a crucial vote in 2007 and then 2008 for the college board to support this campus, they came to the fore, they organized the community, the community rose up probably one of the first few times in the history of the chinese community in san francisco, they rose up from the ground and they said, we want this campus, we're fighting for this...
106
106
Nov 3, 2012
11/12
by
KQEH
tv
eye 106
favorite 0
quote 0
these are people looking at ballot measure molly munger, the civil rights attorney who have almost completely financed prop 38, that looks like it's going to fa on election day and her brother charles, they both got their money from their dad who is warren buffett's business epartner. charlie munger, who operates in republican politics, haser been financing this paycheck deduction measure and financing the anti-jerry brown tax measure, though he apparently didn't think he was. that's another story. and yet tom, the hedge fund manager, financing prop 39, i think that's the only one that looks safe at this point. nd up got to wonder, i mean, what is it they want? do they see a civic duty, do they see a political futureti f them? tom, they wonder what he's going to do. but jerry brown is a guy who has been vexed by the munger fami. in this race. right? molly munger's prop 38 could be drawing support away from him and her brother charlie munger is financing the campaign apparently to kill his tax measure. >> belva: did one of them put more money in this week? >> the brother, charles, into this po
these are people looking at ballot measure molly munger, the civil rights attorney who have almost completely financed prop 38, that looks like it's going to fa on election day and her brother charles, they both got their money from their dad who is warren buffett's business epartner. charlie munger, who operates in republican politics, haser been financing this paycheck deduction measure and financing the anti-jerry brown tax measure, though he apparently didn't think he was. that's another...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
113
113
Nov 4, 2012
11/12
by
SFGTV
tv
eye 113
favorite 0
quote 0
veronica from the civil rights commission who is here today can answer any technical questions, worked closely with general manager carl kelly. and the advisory committee to develop these changes. and, so, we hope that you will endorse them and again, veronica is here to answer any additional questions you might have. >> i would like some public comment. lisa [speaker not understood]. >> i'm glad you guys can see me. good morning, commissioners. my name is lisa [speaker not understood]. i am the chair for the sfpuc small permit advisory committee. and i'd like to thank you today for this opportunity to be able to speak to you. anyways, we are in favor of endorsing these changes and we hope that you would also see fit to do the same thing.
veronica from the civil rights commission who is here today can answer any technical questions, worked closely with general manager carl kelly. and the advisory committee to develop these changes. and, so, we hope that you will endorse them and again, veronica is here to answer any additional questions you might have. >> i would like some public comment. lisa [speaker not understood]. >> i'm glad you guys can see me. good morning, commissioners. my name is lisa [speaker not...
126
126
Oct 29, 2012
10/12
by
CSPAN2
tv
eye 126
favorite 0
quote 0
rights even though civil rights was a bipartisan issue until late in the 60's richard nixon got 42% of the black vote in 1967 decided to create that for the white working class load very successfully and specifically in the south there's a strong association between the civil rights movement and the democrats of today it's very hard to win the south back to respect how much of the antiobama rhetoric -- i know it's hard to put a number on it, but when i hear someone say romney was classier than michelle obama to the stomach somebody in tampa said she looks like a first lady. i mean -- [laughter] if you want a first lady that lectures you and when does your finger at you and tells you to stop it. yeah. you know, it's really quite unbelievable. it really is. >> president obama has been the president for almost four years now so i was having a conversation with someone the other day and he is the president who cares whether he is black, white or purple what this point why can't people except we have a black president? move on to we estimate it's one step forward and two steps back. bara
rights even though civil rights was a bipartisan issue until late in the 60's richard nixon got 42% of the black vote in 1967 decided to create that for the white working class load very successfully and specifically in the south there's a strong association between the civil rights movement and the democrats of today it's very hard to win the south back to respect how much of the antiobama rhetoric -- i know it's hard to put a number on it, but when i hear someone say romney was classier than...
174
174
Nov 2, 2012
11/12
by
KNTV
tv
eye 174
favorite 0
quote 0
who oversees the school districts, the office of civil rights are in charge of that. they respond to complaints. but no one is enforcing title ix on a regular basis. so, they do not know who is complying and who is not. back to you. >> if you have a tip for our investigative unit, including any issues when you're trying to vote next tuesday, give us a call. or send us an e-mail to the unit at nbcbayarea.com. >>> coming up, eyewitness to disaster. >> frustrated. >> sandy survivors arrive in the bay area. >>> also, the invention of cinema's most famous villains. and there's word that george lucas will try to do a lot of good after selling "star wars." >>> and sergio romo's parade fashion choice has a lot of people talking. >>> a downright cold night already here across the bay area with 48 in santa rosa. we could near some 30s as we head throughout tomorrow morning. and while we're speaking of the cold now, it's all about the warming trend in the seven-day forecast. >>> he has two world series under his belt and one t-shirt that's getting almost as much attention. giant
who oversees the school districts, the office of civil rights are in charge of that. they respond to complaints. but no one is enforcing title ix on a regular basis. so, they do not know who is complying and who is not. back to you. >> if you have a tip for our investigative unit, including any issues when you're trying to vote next tuesday, give us a call. or send us an e-mail to the unit at nbcbayarea.com. >>> coming up, eyewitness to disaster. >> frustrated. >>...
137
137
Nov 1, 2012
11/12
by
KNTV
tv
eye 137
favorite 0
quote 0
. >> the office of civil rights in washington, d.c. told us they respond to complaints but no one is enforcing title 9 on a regular basis. of the more than 200 e-mails we sent a few principals did identify the coordinator about tut majority did not respond or i didn't know who it was. as a result of our investigation a national nonprofit group says they are taking action. we'll have those as they emerge here on nbc bay area. >> thank you. making a difference. thank you. if you have a tip fora, give us a call. send us e-mail to the unit at nbcbayarea.com. >> trick or treat from you tonight? >> it's no trick that there's rain on the radar, but a little bit of a treat, we're holding it off for the east and the south bay. pretty good transition. thanks for that. 57 in santa rosa now, it's cold on this evening. 62 in concord, 63 in almost and 63 in san jose. not only that but we're tracking this storm with some of the consistent and heavy rainfall. it's moving very slowly so this is good news for some of you, not others. picked up about .1
. >> the office of civil rights in washington, d.c. told us they respond to complaints but no one is enforcing title 9 on a regular basis. of the more than 200 e-mails we sent a few principals did identify the coordinator about tut majority did not respond or i didn't know who it was. as a result of our investigation a national nonprofit group says they are taking action. we'll have those as they emerge here on nbc bay area. >> thank you. making a difference. thank you. if you have...
496
496
Oct 31, 2012
10/12
by
KGO
tv
eye 496
favorite 0
quote 0
aclu insists that infringes on the rights to free speech. others say it doesn't do enough to help victims. >> we think that traffic victims should not have to be arrest forward prosecution first. >> leah one of the victims but she's supporting prop pa and is reconciled with her mother who just pose forward this photo. >> she was so proud. i saw the look on her face z it's been a long time coming. >> leah rescue bid church outreach workers and has now founded her own organization to rescue trafficking victims. we have links to that group on abc 7 news.com. >> just ahead helping victims of super storm sandy. >> how donated blood here can help back there. stay with us >>> sandy continues to pummel the northeast, red cross stepped in to help. >> volunteers are already on the ground back east but red krogs also needs your help. >> as a giant wave crash add shore in delaware red cross volunteer virginia heart snaps these photos.. >> winds were very, very, almost to the point they would knock you over. >> heart left her home to go volunteer spoke t
aclu insists that infringes on the rights to free speech. others say it doesn't do enough to help victims. >> we think that traffic victims should not have to be arrest forward prosecution first. >> leah one of the victims but she's supporting prop pa and is reconciled with her mother who just pose forward this photo. >> she was so proud. i saw the look on her face z it's been a long time coming. >> leah rescue bid church outreach workers and has now founded her own...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
127
127
Oct 30, 2012
10/12
by
SFGTV
tv
eye 127
favorite 0
quote 0
i know that the civil grand jury points that as a failure or a ongoing frustration. i think we see some of the recent success and progress we're optimistic. right now 3600 users, 27 departments and some of the largest departments are slated for conversion in the next months and library is slated for conversion and additional 1300 accounts and others in january. our largest department with another 7100 accounts. data center consolidation and virtualization has been so successful that the scope has been expanded. initially the project was to convert or relocate 900 servers and 750 have been virtualized and 400 identified as candidates and 300 additional for relocation and total of 1400 servers, much larger than the originally scope of the project. this is also a sign of collaboration among the departments and one of the data center is housed at the airport and not in our department of technology. enterprise agreements have recently been completed with bm ware and adobe and projected to save the city money over the next few years and asset management and equipment maint
i know that the civil grand jury points that as a failure or a ongoing frustration. i think we see some of the recent success and progress we're optimistic. right now 3600 users, 27 departments and some of the largest departments are slated for conversion in the next months and library is slated for conversion and additional 1300 accounts and others in january. our largest department with another 7100 accounts. data center consolidation and virtualization has been so successful that the scope...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
115
115
Nov 3, 2012
11/12
by
SFGTV
tv
eye 115
favorite 0
quote 0
there are civil rights laws. there is nothing wrong with that, except that the idea was you just get them back on the streets and they're all going to get well. you get them out of the state hospitals, they're all going to get well. well, first of all, they can't handle their medication. they can't handle treatment. they have to be put in a ward or they have to be put under laura's law where their medication is supervised. if you're going to give them a chance to live. and the people who aren't treated are the people who self-medicate and they have a major portion of the street drug clients. they're the people who self-medicate on alcohol. and when i was putting together two major programs in berkeley which were teleconferencing [speaker not understood] berkeley and ucsf on mental health and public policy and mental health and law, and you can look at those programs by going to mental health law symposium, all of them together on the web and see what those people said. and the last putting together, willie brown,
there are civil rights laws. there is nothing wrong with that, except that the idea was you just get them back on the streets and they're all going to get well. you get them out of the state hospitals, they're all going to get well. well, first of all, they can't handle their medication. they can't handle treatment. they have to be put in a ward or they have to be put under laura's law where their medication is supervised. if you're going to give them a chance to live. and the people who aren't...